Navigating Intellectual Property Laws and NIL Deals with Karin Coger

Get ready to take your business to the next level! We've got the exceptional Karin Coger, a seasoned lawyer and founder of Coger Law Firm, ready to guide us through the maze of intellectual property law, business registration, and the value of investing in ourselves. Karin shares her insights on why businesses need to research trademarks diligently before they register, and the added benefits that come with hiring an attorney for this vital task.

But the conversation doesn't stop there. We're turning our focus to Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) deals, a critical subject for high school and college student-athletes. We discuss the importance of understanding the fine print before signing away rights. There's a lot at stake for student-athletes - that's why they need expert advice and coaching to navigate and negotiate NIL deals effectively.

Karin walks us through the process of working with an attorney to protect our intellectual property. She breaks down the services provided by her firm, additional fees associated with a trademark or copyright, and why it's crucial to select the right attorney. As a bonus, Karin shares her experiences on how investing in herself and coaching helped to grow her firm from the ground up. Protect your intellectual property just like you would protect your home – tune in and get all the expert advice you need.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Investing in Coaching and Intellectual Property
• 15:30 Navigating NIL Deals for Student Athletes
• 22:34 Trademark and Business Consultation Overview
• 32:13 Invest in Yourself and Intellectual Property

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

What is the best piece of advice you've ever received or ever given that has helped you to get to where you are?

Speaker 2: 0:10

Um, investing yourself and investing coaching, like you just said, um, I've had a number of coaches since I've opened the law firm. I've taken a number of classes and they have stem from free. A lot of. A lot of professionals Do give out free webinars and you have these podcasts. But if you want to get to the next level, sometimes there is an investment and again it's best to bet on yourself and Invest in yourself.

Speaker 2: 0:37

Like you said, you don't know everything. Find somebody that knows more about what you want to do and whether or not they can get you from point a to point z. So I will say I had, um, I had a particular coach for a year. This coach, I am no longer with them, um, and I'm no longer with them because they gave so much Value that I use something that I was coached on every day in my business.

Speaker 2: 1:04

I had so much coaching that I'm like I don't have time to actually do the work, so I actually had to step back from that coach. So I will always, you know, big up this, this coaching community that I had, um, because they they gave so much and I would not be where I am today without the coaching, without leadership, uh. So definitely invest in yourself, invest in your intellectual property. Almost anybody that owns a business has some form of intellectual property, whether it is a contract that needs to be reviewed, whether it is a logo that needs to be, you know, filed with the trademark office, or even the content that you produce, uh, which can be copy written.

Speaker 1: 1:56

Welcome, welcome, welcome to another episode of friends with businesses where I introduce you to my friends with businesses and I know that you will benefit. You know, if you're interested in being a guest on the show and we're friends, please visit friends with businesses dot net, um. And if you are ready to grow your business and scale it, please reach out to me, um, at friends with businesses dot net or anywhere on social media. My goal is, before the end of the year, to help to hyper monetize 50 businesses, so come find out what that means. All right, great. But today I am here with Ms Corinne Kroger Esquire. So she's a lawyer, y'all. So, to be she really smart, and that means I can't, you know, say anything crazy, because that's you let the record show like the huxes will on me. But, as I said, this is friends with businesses and so I've known Corinne for like what 1112 years.

Speaker 1: 2:52

We met through some hamtonians uh, ryan and brian. They have their this group called r&b and this recess thing. It was a whole lot of fun. Again, it was a decade ago and, uh, you know, a lot of change in everybody's life since then. Right, you know, even though you know there is older generation of hamtonians all on the same. You know saying just. You know I was the youngest in the group and I like that. You know they look a little like 20s, right, okay, um, but yes, can we please introduce yourself? Let the people know that we're gonna jump right into this Amazing field that you're in.

Speaker 2: 3:26

All right, thank you very much, carl. Hi everybody, my name is Corinne Kroger. I am the founder and the managing attorney of Kogorat law firm, so we are a boutique firm. We are located in south jersey. However, we mainly practice in the area of intellectual property law, so my practice consists of trademarks, copyright, small business law, contracts and now in I? L, which stands for Name image alightness for student athletes. I do tell people that in I l existed Um prior to 2021, but it's getting a spotlight on it because the nc double a Just allowed it for student athletes a couple years ago.

Speaker 1: 4:11

Yes, thank you so much. So, um, you know, intellectual property is one of those things that is extremely important to small business. You know, I just, uh, found the trademark for friends with businesses. You know, did the the easy route, all by myself, and I'm like I should have called her and, um, I'm trying to be cheap Next time. I promise you you will get caught, because I'm never going to do that. But, yeah, so you know, because so many times we have ideas and even slogans or titles, you know, logos, all that type of stuff, and it's just out there and all it takes was to get too big, and then somebody like you know what. I'm gonna take it instead. So please talk to me about, you know, I mean, um, um, what should every business on, especially small businesses, know about what you do and how important your role is? Any visit, every day, operation.

Speaker 2: 5:01

Absolutely so. One of the things that people don't realize is that you should research your trademark First. You should do that before you even register your business. Because what if you go to register your business name? Um, and this is what happens for a lot of folks they register a business name, they get their EIN, they start their business, they set up all their social media, they set up their domains and a few years down the line they say, oh, let me go pay attention to that, you know trademark now and come to find out it's already been taken.

Speaker 2: 5:31

So I always tell people, even if you do not file right away which you should you need to do the research right away to make sure that that name is available. Um, and I know that you said that you filed on your own and it's definitely um? Uh possible for people to file on their own successfully. But one of the things that happens is, when you file with an attorney is we do we do a deeper search? Um, then the average person? If you just do a google search or you just do a search of the united states patent and trademark office, you'll typically find marks that are um, that are registered, but they are typically looking at the, the literal marks, so um, for instance, what's the? The name of the podcast? One more time, friends with businesses.

Speaker 2: 6:23

Friends with businesses All right, I'm sure there's probably a trademark out there that's friends with benefits. So there is a possibility that's something that we would point out to you as the business owner like, listen, your mark is very close to this mark and there is a possibility that this may come up during your application. Another thing that people don't realize is that when you file for your trademark, there are a number of different classes and goods that they can file in, so you're not necessarily just filing one trademark. It is a trademark per class, per goods. So an example would be filing a trademark to advertise your podcast. It would be a separate trademark for apparel for your podcast. It would be a separate trademark for hats for your podcast. So again, I just encourage people to do the trademark search early, file early. You don't have to have had been in business yet. You can file what's called an intent to use mark and that helps to reserve your mark even though you're not using it yet, but you want to use it sometime in the near future.

Speaker 1: 7:39

So just out of curiosity, right, I'm going to ask this question how much do you charge for this? Because I know how much I pay.

Speaker 2: 7:47

OK, so I charge at minimum. It's $3,000 charge, which we do enable people to break up that charge either in two payments. Or we also use affirmcom. If any of you guys are familiar with that and what I tell people is with that charge, they will say frequently well, why should I pay you that much? Can I just use one of the services online or legal Zoom? And the difference is with those services they process paperwork for you and when you file with me, you get me. So with me, I hold your hand through this entire process.

Speaker 2: 8:27

Right now it's taking approximately 18 months for a trademark applications to go through. So, again, a lot of the work is on the front end, which has to do with your research. So we can do that process first and then, when you're ready, we will go ahead and file, hopefully within two weeks of doing that research, because the research can change Within that two weeks, another brand can pop up that has the same or similar name. Now, during the trademark process, there is a possibility that they will issue what's called an office action, and this is where the second area in which the attorney really is important, because the trademark office will contact the filer state. These are things that I find wrong with your application. Or we have found that your mark is substantially similar to another mark, that it could possibly cause confusion, and you have to respond to that office action and essentially argue why your mark should be granted.

Speaker 2: 9:40

So that is the second major area in the trademark process. And then the third area is what if your mark is? You go through all that and your mark is still refused. So that's the third area. The fourth area is if you go through this whole process and the trademark office says we are willing to grant you this trademark, but every mark is published for opposition. So that means the trademark office puts out a bulletin once a week and it lists all of the marks that are going to be published and anybody has 30 days to oppose your mark or say you know what? I think that mark is very similar to mine. So oftentimes people get through the whole process and they're all excited. We're like we're down to those 30 days. Sometimes a company will come in on day 29 or day 30 and they will file an opposition which essentially is litigation for your trademark.

Speaker 1: 10:44

So they just come in hating as soon as you know something right. I'm scared now.

Speaker 2: 10:51

I didn't mean to.

Speaker 1: 10:53

I paid you about $350.

Speaker 2: 10:55

Yeah, but again, this is something that we do talk about at the beginning of the process. We try to anticipate. If you still want to go forward with your mark, you know you might encounter these hiccups. There are certain businesses that are more litigious than others. So, for instance, you have a mark that's similar to Apple. Just know, apple is coming for you, disney is coming for you, but there are even smaller businesses that, again, we will do the research and we'll be able to identify. Hey, if you want to go forward, these are the hurdles that you may have. Now, I always tell people there's no guarantee that your mark is going to be granted, whether you use an attorney or not, but we try to help you along this process.

Speaker 1: 11:46

Yes. So, like I said, I did a cheat, bro, I paid the 350, right, and did it all on my own. And so, to be honest with you, right, I filed it for apparel and I filed it for a few days, two days, right? So you know what? If you didn't, then what happened was I go and I launched my podcast, right, called Friends of Film. I mean, look the application. Then I'm going you know what I'm saying, I'm going to do this, hopefully come out right. If not, I'm changing the name to something, though I'm not scared. And as soon as I do that, I say, hey, go, look for my podcast, friends of Business. Guess what? There's already a podcast called Friends of Business Podcast.

Speaker 1: 12:28

I didn't look for it Because I look, for I'm like, look, I just want the trademark. That's amazing. Like, how are we going to do with this? I'm like I want the trademark, I'm going to use it. This somebody said, carl, this doesn't look like you. I'm like, you know, it doesn't, only I look like me. And so, like a different color scheme, and they haven't published anything for like three years now, and all that stuff. And there is not.

Speaker 1: 12:53

I did, you know, do a? I mean, I didn't. Of course it was not a thorough search, but I did a cursory search to at least see if there was any podcast that had filed for it. And it had not been. Nothing in media has filed for it and so you know, I was like, oh shoot, I really didn't know, like I didn't even look for a podcast called this. So that's why you know, I mean, and you know I will be your, you know, tell people I'm your cautionary tale that you actually do need someone like Karen to do this, because I feel like I'm pretty smart. I'm actually a certified Google searcher. I see the class and I'm certified in how to search for Google. You know my ethical hacker, so I know how to even do all these crazy ways of searching and things of that nature. You know the Google dorking and stuff like that and did not find friends with business podcasts before mine came out.

Speaker 1: 13:48

All that to say folks need this. And I know I don't want to keep you on, but you said so many things. You know that you actually do. So, everybody, if you need to do your, your trademark. So even if you stop right here and you're like, hey, I need to call her right now, get right, right now. Go visit Koga law firmcom that's wwwkogacogrlawfirmcom. Right now 70 consultation and tell them Carl sent you Absolutely Because maybe she'll give me some free service. Let's tell them, you know, I'll give you enough. Y'all go, they may show, come and show defend me when these people come and try to take my part. That's what that means they.

Speaker 1: 14:29

I do want to make sure that we hit that as well. And, as you know you know you talked a lot about NIL naming, image and likeness, which is becoming hot topic over the year. You know we happen to have a mutual friend whose daughter is one of the, you know, highest paid NIL folks in the country right now on the on the on the women's side. You know, after winning the championship at LSU and Angel region, we actually we all met in that same group and you know I've done the part of Angel and some other things with the family and you know that's kind of what everybody sees these huge million, trillion billion dollar deals, which is great. But you know I work with a number of youth basketball organizations and I see some of these students.

Speaker 1: 15:20

they're coming in. You know, middle school is when you've done contests, which is crazy, and you let me know that f5a. I never had any business trying to be out there. But what would you say to these parents? You know, I was actually just talking to my housekeeper yesterday and her son is in the eighth grade and he's shining in football and she's like I don't know what to do next. He's getting scouted already. Please, let's open up that door for these parents who have their, their students, who really have the potential. So of course, we get at the highest level, but even there may be some opportunities now they want to do.

Speaker 2: 16:00

The number one advice that I have for parents is to book a consultation with an attorney, and I say that not to see our law firmcom.

Speaker 2: 16:11

Right, and I say that jokingly, but not jokingly, because even though NIL is available for college students is not available for all high school students. So I actually do have an NIL Facebook group and somebody today just asked I don't want to mess up my, my son or daughter's eligibility. They're in high school. Can I get an NIL deal in Florida? No, they can't. So what is happening is the NIL oh, excuse me, the NCAA they have their rules. There is no federal rule for NIL. All the states have their different rules. So you want to make sure that you research the rules for your high school or even junior high student in that state, because they may not be eligible and, trust me, the money that you think you're going to get when your child is perhaps a sophomore and they drop this NIL deal, you don't want to mess up their eligibility for that. But I always tell the parents that there are things that they can do in order to prepare them to get NIL deals in the future. Now for parents of student athletes who are already in college, same advice you want to talk to an attorney?

Speaker 2: 17:31

So before we got on, carl and I were talking, there was a story that just dropped. So this former student who is assigned to the Chicago Bears, so it may be pronouncing it incorrectly, but it's Jevron Dexter Sr. He filed an NIL deal with Big League Advanced Fund to LLC and he filed a lawsuit stating that this deal was against Florida law. I can tell you by reading this story that there was not an attorney that was there independently representing this student athlete at that time. So, to make a long story short, essentially what they said and what was included in this NIL deal is that he was going to get a lump sum of over $400,000. However, in this deal, the company that signed him would receive 15% of his pre-tax NFL earnings for the span of 25 years.

Speaker 2: 18:34

That is just unconscionable. It's completely against the law and, like I said, I can guarantee you that absolutely nobody was looking out, you know, for this student athlete. There are some student athletes whose parents don't necessarily know what to do or they may not have that student athlete's best interests at heart and a lot of times people are looking at that money that people are going to give them today and they're not reading these contracts. So not only was that contract unconscionable, there are a lot of rights that these student athletes are signing away because they're getting these contracts and just signing them. So just think, whenever we go to a website there's terms of services. We just click the box you know and say you know. And say okay, and we have no clue what we're signing away. But these student athletes are doing this with money right there in their face and they have no clue what they're giving away in these NIL deals.

Speaker 1: 19:37

So, yeah, I want to go a little deeper in that, you know, because we don't necessarily always do risk assessment. We see numbers and we make moves. And I want to back up a bit with what you first started about, because I know we had a conversation a while back when Virginia first started a lot of NIL for high school students, and you mentioned about eligibility that there are still, even if your state allows it, if you go to a, if you want to go to a college in a state that doesn't, how does that?

Speaker 2: 20:10

yeah, that would require a little bit of research. So again, you know you can, definitely, you know, do the Google search. So let's say you are, you know, in Virginia and they allow high school students to have, you know, NIL deals, but they're going to go to a college in the state that does not allow. So you need somebody to do that research for you and double check whether or not that NIL deal will hold up, will be valid and won't make them ineligible.

Speaker 1: 20:41

Yeah, and that's that, and you know y'all. I want to reemphasize that I talked about this a lot. Every coach needs a coach. Just remember this every coach needs a coach. I'm a business coach, I'm a business solution architect, but some of you call me a coach, which is fine, but guess what? I have coaches, you know, who tell me what to do because of their level of expertise.

Speaker 1: 21:04

Yes, it is a possibility that I could go out on my own, learn everything, that is, to know about everything, but the likelihood of doing that is very, very, very slim, and in which case I'll become an expert in nothing. So what you want to do is look for the experts in what you're doing and what, what you want to get into, because, yes, you may be great, your child will be great on the field, and you may be great at Google, but you're not an attorney. And you might be an attorney, but are you a intellectual property attorney, which is completely different, you know? So that's one of the reasons why I like to have people on here who have expertise is because we, as business people, get into so many different things on our own, because in the era of YouTube, in the era of algorithms, you know, selling new things, people can make you think that anything you want to do you can do DIY, and that says there are a number of things you can do DIY, but there are certain things you just don't want to change it. You really, really really do not Like. You know, if you've got a plug in your house and it's difficult, you don't want to Google that. You want to call an electrician If you're. You know, if you're filing a trademark or patent or copyright, don't just Google it and go to USPTOgov and run with it. Go to wwwcogrlawfirmcom, you know, and have at least have the consultation.

Speaker 1: 22:34

So I learned things even today that I had no idea about. You know, and had I known those things, I probably would have made a different decision before. Yes, I still would have filed a trademark, but I would have done it in a way that was a little bit more protected. And, that being said, you know. So I wanted to really jump on that and remind you know people in the US, as Karim was just mentioning about this contract, this man is in the NFL now and somebody's trying to lay claims to 15% of his pre-tax earnings, which is utterly preposterous. Do they really think their uncle's saying let's come on, stop this. You know, even God don't ask for that much, okay. So, yeah, you know, I really appreciate you. You know you're going down that path. So, but even, as you said, set up a consultation. So what happens in these consultations when somebody comes? I want people to know what to expect when they meet with you. The value even in just having the first conversation.

Speaker 2: 23:33

Okay, so I can only speak for my firm.

Speaker 1: 23:36

Yeah, okay, let me just tell you this.

Speaker 1: 23:39

So, carl, grade of third of launch with Carl Friends of Business podcast, business and architect, if not recommending you go to any attorney, that's not what you're saying I'm only recommending that you go to Kogler Law Firm Now I may have another lawyer on here because this is friends with business and I'm introducing you to my friends with benefits with businesses so you can benefit from them. I can only vouch for her right now. Again, like I said, I know if someone y'all like I'm gonna get on next I will highlight you, whatever. But I'm telling you right now I'm only vouching for. I'm not saying you just go find an attorney, because we all know we see movies. I was watching a suit for the third time. You might be looking for Mike Ross, but just kidding. I'm not saying I'm not telling you to go to any attorney, I'm saying you job to correct.

Speaker 2: 24:27

Absolutely so. Like in anything, there's levels to this ish. So there's that first 15 minute discovery call it might be with me, it might be with a member of the staff and that is to determine whether the matter or the problem that you're calling about is something that we can handle. So then there is the option of either a 30 minute consultation or a hour strategic session. So what's the difference between the two? The 30 minutes we're going to talk about things on a cursory level. There will be a consultation agreement and it states that it is just a consultation and we will, you know, we will talk about your NIL trademark, small business matter.

Speaker 2: 25:17

The strategic session is more so kind of like people like Carl who can do it on their own. However, during the strategic session, we do allow up to five pages of contract review. So sometimes you just need somebody to look over your contract. That's what we will do during the strategic session. Or if you say you know what, I want to open a business, but I need to plan out how to do these things, that's what a strategic session is for Now. After that, if you want to go forward with a trademark or with a copyright, there are additional fees for that and you do become a client of the firm. Now, if you sign up for either the consultation or the strategic session and you become a client of the firm within three business days, the money that you pay for those consultations or those sessions will be forwarded to the money for your full service. So, as I said, we start at 3,000 for trademarks but we handhold you that entire time.

Speaker 1: 26:23

That's amazing. My thought is, my belief is, if somebody is filing a trademark, a patent, copyright, anything like that, they plan to make money from it. So this isn't like just going out and buying a shirt for $3,000. You're actually, it's more of an investment than anything, because it's an investment that's not a protection. The amount of money that I pay for protection is worth my life. It's worth the life of the business. So, yeah, it actually makes sense. One day, I'm hoping this will blow up. I could be the next David Shann or something Exactly, and you can sign your podcasts or you can license other materials that stem from this.

Speaker 2: 27:10

So that is what our firm is about. We want to help you. Number one, protect your IP, but also monetize it, grow it and, if you want, to sell it.

Speaker 1: 27:23

Yeah, exactly, and I know I keep jumping back and forth between my situation and the NIL thing. They feel like they're one of the same. I feel like a high school kid who just signed his life for it. But that being said, so just you know I'm not going to say that, just give you one of the things that I ran into.

Speaker 1: 27:42

You know, again, as I said, I work with a basketball organization and what we were doing. We had a student and he was going into his senior year of college, right, and we put together this whole branding and marketing. You know, again, business solution type situation. You know we're going to create a character form. You know, do the payroll, do the local things, where he'll be able to find the businesses and make sure that they're properly. You know he's making the money back at all this type of stuff. I ended up not moving forward, but it was a learning experience for me as well to see how involved the process actually is. Even, you know, was dealing with the attorneys as well, and let me tell you these attorneys when you're talking to them they are, y'all are dogs.

Speaker 1: 28:34

y'all don't play Like y'all really don't play.

Speaker 1: 28:40

Because it's like you know well, my client needs this. Well, if this happens, then what are you doing? You know, are you getting? Well, what is he? And it's really that advocacy piece that can give somebody the peace of mind to be able to go into something like this. You know, even just being able to it helps you sleep at night. You know that somebody is protecting you.

Speaker 1: 29:01

So I mean, I appreciate what you're doing for this and I don't want to keep you long, as I know that you're very, very busy. But a couple things so, as you know. You know, like I said, you know me for a while and actually you met me when there was this political type of stuff, and so you know I try to get into this and you know y'all still be going crazy on these topics, you know. So I've laid out a whole lot. Y'all still be talking about you putting, you know y'all just going in okay on the social media, good. But one thing that is near and dear to my heart is our community. Right, and I'm really good, I'm spreading my good news that I feel like I got from the real good news that there is not a problem in our community when I say awesome up like people in our community that does not have an entrepreneurial solution. Correct, not a business solution, an entrepreneurial solution. We're solving a problem, so tell me where you come in in our solution.

Speaker 2: 30:06

Yeah, I would say first and foremost with with education. When it comes to my area of the law, most people do not have education about it, like they'll throw around words like trademark and copyright and some people don't know the difference between the two. So that's, that's number one. When it comes to working with clients or potential clients, what do you have where the assets that you're able to trademark and copyright? And I say those two because I don't do patents. Patent is another area of the law. They actually take a separate bar. So I would refer somebody out to, yeah, to a patent. Yeah, they take two bars and they guys take the regular bar and I gotta take the patent bar, so I'm gonna refer that out. So my biggest contribution to the community is education, because the more you know, the better you are.

Speaker 1: 31:02

I see, I really appreciate it, and our history I mean historically speaking, the way that I did has been stolen from us Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 31:14

I mean To themselves, to inventions, to liquor Music. I mean I'm gonna go on.

Speaker 1: 31:23

Yeah, so I mean I thousand percent agree. So y'all heard it here first. You know we need to put our intellectual property attorneys and advocates in the forefront of what we're doing, because even just our ideas need to be protected. And so my last question is you can pick one or the other, okay, what is the best piece of advice you've ever received, or ever given it, that has helped you to get to where you are?

Speaker 2: 31:55

Investing yourself and investing coaching. Like you just said, I've had a number of coaches since I've opened the law firm. I've taken a number of classes and they have STEM from free. A lot of professionals do give out free webinars and you have these podcasts. But if you want to get to the next level, sometimes there is an investment and again it's best to bet on yourself and invest in yourself.

Speaker 2: 32:22

Like you said, you don't know everything. Find somebody that knows more about what you want to do and whether or not they can get you from point A to point Z. So I will say I had a particular coach for a year. This coach. I am no longer with them and I'm no longer with them because they gave so much value that I use something that I was coached on every day in my business. I had so much coaching that I'm like I don't have time to actually do the work, so I actually had to step back from that coach. So I will always, you know, big up this coaching community that I had because they gave so much and I would not be where I am today without the coaching, without leadership. So definitely invest in yourself, invest in your intellectual property. Almost anybody that owns a business has some form of intellectual property, whether it is a contract that needs to be reviewed, whether it is a logo that needs to be, you know, filed with the trademark office, or even the content that you produce, which can be copy written.

Speaker 1: 33:35

You mean like all these other tools. Okay, so let me go to wwwglogfirmcom. So I mean, I've said it like 50 different times, but if somebody does want to reach you, what can we put in the show notes for them to be able to reach you, If they need to reach you, because all of them are really not from yours, just your name.

Speaker 1: 34:01

Hello, carl grade, the third business solution, like the deal with the dress, so many things. That's me how I went over there, yeah. So please reach out Again. You know we have to protect ourselves. The same way. You know, whether you have an alarm system, whether you have firearms, whatever you use to protect your house, that is necessary. You need to have of the same caliber to protect your intellectual property. So thank you so much, corrine. I know you have to run, but you took the time to talk to my friends and you're my friend with the business and I know we've all benefited today. So thank you so much for coming, thank you for having me.